□アメリカ大統領選挙　第一回テレビ討論会(原文)　その4

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(LAUGHTER)

And...

BUSH:ﾊI'm trying to put a leash on them.

(LAUGHTER)

KERRY:ﾊWell, I know.ﾊI've learned not to do that.

(LAUGHTER)

And I have great respect and admiration for his wife.ﾊI think she's a terrific person...

BUSH:ﾊThank you.

KERRY:ﾊ... and a great first lady.

But we do have differences.ﾊI'm not going to talk about a difference of character.ﾊI don't think that's my job or my business.

But let me talk about something that the president just sort of finished up with.ﾊMaybe someone would call it a character trait, maybe somebody wouldn't.

But this issue of certainty.ﾊIt's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and be wrong.ﾊ

It's another to be certain and be right, or to be certain and be moving in the right direction, or be certain about a principle and then learn new facts and take those new facts and put them to use in order to change and get your policy right.

What I worry about with the president is that he's not acknowledging what's on the ground, he's not acknowledging the realities of North Korea, he's not acknowledging the truth of the science of stem-cell research or of global warming and other issues.

And certainty sometimes can get you in trouble.

LEHRER:ﾊThirty seconds.

BUSH:ﾊWell, I think -- listen, I fully agree that one should shift tactics, and we will, in Iraq.ﾊOur commanders have got all the flexibility to do what is necessary to succeed.ﾊ

But what I won't do is change my core values because of politics or because of pressure.ﾊ

And it is one of the things I've learned in the White House, is that there's enormous pressure on the president, and he cannot wilt under that pressure.ﾊOtherwise, the world won't be better off.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊThirty seconds.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊI have no intention of wilting.ﾊI've never wilted in my life.ﾊAnd I've never wavered in my life.ﾊ

I know exactly what we need to do in Iraq, and my position has been consistent:ﾊSaddam Hussein is a threat.ﾊHe needed to be disarmed.ﾊWe needed to go to the U.N.ﾊThe president needed the authority to use force in order to be able to get him to do something, because he never did it without the threat of force.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊBut we didn't need to rush to war without a plan to win the peace.

LEHRER:ﾊNew question, two minutes, Senator Kerry.

If you are elected president, what will you take to that office thinking is the single most serious threat to the national security to the United States?

KERRY:ﾊNuclear proliferation.ﾊNuclear proliferation.ﾊThere's some 600-plus tons of unsecured material still in the former Soviet Union and Russia.ﾊAt the rate that the president is currently securing it, it'll take 13 years to get it.

I did a lot of work on this.ﾊI wrote a book about it several years ago -- six, seven years ago -- called "The New War," which saw the difficulties of this international criminal network.ﾊAnd back then, we intercepted a suitcase in a Middle Eastern country with nuclear materials in it.ﾊAnd the black market sale price was about $250 million.

KERRY:ﾊNow, there are terrorists trying to get their hands on that stuff today.ﾊ

And this president, I regret to say, has secured less nuclear material in the last two years since 9/11 than we did in the two years preceding 9/11.ﾊ

We have to do this job.ﾊAnd to do the job, you can't cut the money for it.ﾊThe president actually cut the money for it.ﾊYou have to put the money into it and the funding and the leadership.ﾊ

And part of that leadership is sending the right message to places like North Korea.

Right now the president is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to research bunker-busting nuclear weapons.ﾊThe United States is pursuing a new set of nuclear weapons.ﾊIt doesn't make sense.

You talk about mixed messages.ﾊWe're telling other people, "You can't have nuclear weapons," but we're pursuing a new nuclear weapon that we might even contemplate using.ﾊ

Not this president.ﾊI'm going to shut that program down, and we're going to make it clear to the world we're serious about containing nuclear proliferation.ﾊ

And we're going to get the job of containing all of that nuclear material in Russia done in four years.ﾊAnd we're going to build the strongest international network to prevent nuclear proliferation.ﾊ

This is the scale of what President Kennedy set out to do with the nuclear test ban treaty.ﾊIt's our generation's equivalent.ﾊAnd I intend to get it done.

LEHRER:ﾊNinety seconds, Mr. President.

BUSH:ﾊActually, we've increased funding for dealing with nuclear proliferation about 35 percent since I've been the president. Secondly, we've set up what's called the -- well, first of all, I agree with my opponent that the biggest threat facing this country is weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a terrorist network.ﾊAnd that's why proliferation is one of the centerpieces of a multi-prong strategy to make the country safer.ﾊ

My administration started what's called the Proliferation Security Initiative.ﾊOver 60 nations involved with disrupting the trans-shipment of information and/or weapons of mass destruction materials.ﾊ

And we've been effective.ﾊWe busted the A.Q. Khan network.ﾊThis was a proliferator out of Pakistan that was selling secrets to places like North Korea and Libya.ﾊWe convinced Libya to disarm.ﾊ

It's a central part of dealing with weapons of mass destruction and proliferation.

I'll tell you another way to help protect America in the long run is to continue with missile defenses.ﾊAnd we've got a robust research and development program that has been ongoing during my administration.ﾊWe'll be implementing a missile-defense system relatively quickly.ﾊ

And that is another way to help deal with the threats that we face in the 21st century.

My opponent opposed the missile defenses.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊJust for this one-minute discussion here, just for whatever seconds it takes:ﾊSo it's correct to say, that if somebody is listening to this, that both of you agree, if you're reelected, Mr. President, and if you are elected, the single most serious threat you believe, both of you believe, is nuclear proliferation?

BUSH:ﾊIn the hands of a terrorist enemy.

KERRY:ﾊWeapons of mass destruction, nuclear proliferation.ﾊ

But again, the test or the difference between us, the president has had four years to try to do something about it, and North Korea has got more weapons; Iran is moving toward weapons.ﾊAnd at his pace, it will take 13 years to secure those weapons in Russia.ﾊ

I'm going to do it in four years, and I'm going to immediately set out to have bilateral talks with North Korea.

LEHRER:ﾊYour response to that?

BUSH:ﾊAgain, I can't tell you how big a mistake I think that is, to have bilateral talks with North Korea.ﾊIt's precisely what Kim Jong Il wants.ﾊIt will cause the six-party talks to evaporate.ﾊIt will mean that China no longer is involved in convincing, along with us, for Kim Jong Il to get rid of his weapons.ﾊIt's a big mistake to do that.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊWe must have China's leverage on Kim Jong Il, besides ourselves.ﾊ

And if you enter bilateral talks, they'll be happy to walk away from the table.ﾊI don't think that'll work.ﾊ

LEHRER:ﾊAll right.ﾊMr. President, this is the last question. And two minutes.ﾊIt's a new subject -- new question, and it has to do with President Putin and Russia.ﾊDid you misjudge him or are you -- do you feel that what he is doing in the name of antiterrorism by changing some democratic processes is OK?

BUSH:ﾊNo, I don't think it's OK, and said so publicly.ﾊI think that there needs to be checks and balances in a democracy, and made that very clear that by consolidating power in the central government, he's sending a signal to the Western world and United States that perhaps he doesn't believe in checks and balances, and I told him that.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊI mean, he's also a strong ally in the war on terror.ﾊHe is -- listen, they went through a horrible situation in Beslan, where these terrorists gunned down young school kids.ﾊThat's the nature of the enemy, by the way.ﾊThat's why we need to be firm and resolve in bringing them to justice.ﾊ

That's precisely what Vladimir Putin understands, as well.ﾊ

I've got a good relation with Vladimir.ﾊAnd it's important that we do have a good relation, because that enables me to better comment to him, and to better to discuss with him, some of the decisions he makes.ﾊI found that, in this world, that it's important to establish good personal relationships with people so that when you have disagreements, you're able to disagree in a way that is effective.

And so I've told him my opinion.ﾊ

I look forward to discussing it more with him, as time goes on.ﾊRussia is a country in transition.ﾊVladimir is going to have to make some hard choices.ﾊAnd I think it's very important for the American president, as well as other Western leaders, to remind him of the great benefits of democracy, that democracy will best help the people realize their hopes and aspirations and dreams.ﾊAnd I will continue working with him over the next four years.

LEHRER:ﾊNinety seconds, Senator Kerry.

KERRY:ﾊWell, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary experience of watching up close and personal that transition in Russia, because I was there right after the transformation.ﾊAnd I was probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith of New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them.ﾊ

It sort of brought home the transition to democracy that Russia was trying to make.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊI regret what's happened in these past months.ﾊAnd I think it goes beyond just the response to terror.ﾊMr. Putin now controls all the television stations.ﾊHis political opposition is being put in jail.ﾊ

And I think it's very important to the United States, obviously, to have a working relationship that is good.ﾊThis is a very important country to us.ﾊWe want a partnership.ﾊ

But we always have to stand up for democracy.ﾊAs George Will said the other day, "Freedom on the march; not in Russia right now."

Now, I'd like to come back for a quick moment, if I can, to that issue about China and the talks.ﾊBecause that's one of the most critical issues here:ﾊNorth Korea.ﾊ

Just because the president says it can't be done, that you'd lose China, doesn't mean it can't be done.ﾊI mean, this is the president who said "There were weapons of mass destruction," said "Mission accomplished," said we could fight the war on the cheap -- none of which were true.ﾊ

We could have bilateral talks with Kim Jong Il.ﾊAnd we can get those weapons at the same time as we get China.ﾊBecause China has an interest in the outcome, too.

LEHRER:ﾊThirty seconds, Mr. President.

BUSH:ﾊYou know my opinion on North Korea.ﾊI can't say it any more plainly.

LEHRER:ﾊWell, but when he used the word "truth" again...

BUSH:ﾊPardon me?

LEHRER:ﾊ... talking about the truth of the matter.ﾊHe used the word "truth" again.ﾊDid that raise any hackles with you?

BUSH:ﾊOh, I'm a pretty calm guy.ﾊI don't take it personally.

LEHRER:ﾊOK.ﾊAll right.ﾊ

BUSH:ﾊYou know, we looked at the same intelligence and came to the same conclusion:ﾊthat Saddam Hussein was a grave threat.ﾊ

And I don't hold it against him that he said grave threat.ﾊI'm not going to go around the country saying he didn't tell the truth, when he looked at the same intelligence I did.

KERRY:ﾊIt was a threat.ﾊThat's not the issue.ﾊThe issue is what you do about it.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊThe president said he was going to build a true coalition, exhaust the remedies of the U.N. and go to war as a last resort.

Those words really have to mean something.ﾊAnd, unfortunately, he didn't go to war as a last resort.ﾊ

Now we have this incredible mess in Iraq -- $200 billion.ﾊIt's not what the American people thought they were getting when they voted.

LEHRER:ﾊAll right, that brings us to closing statements.ﾊ

And, again, as determined by a coin toss, Senator Kerry, you go first, and you have two minutes.

KERRY:ﾊThank you, Jim, very much.ﾊ

Thank you very much to the university, again.ﾊ

Thank you, Mr. President.ﾊ

My fellow Americans, as I've said at the very beginning of this debate, both President Bush and I love this country very much. There's no doubt, I think, about that.ﾊ

But we have a different set of convictions about how we make our country stronger here at home and respected again in the world.

I know that for many of you sitting at home, parents of kids in Iraq, you want to know who's the person who could be a commander in chief who could get your kids home and get the job done and win the peace.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊAnd for all the rest of the parents in America who are wondering about their kids going to the school or anywhere else in the world, what kind of world they're going to grow up in, let me look you in the eye and say to you:ﾊI defended this country as a young man at war, and I will defend it as president of the United States.ﾊ

But I have a difference with this president.ﾊI believe when we're strongest when we reach out and lead the world and build strong alliances.ﾊ

I have a plan for Iraq.ﾊI believe we can be successful.ﾊI'm not talking about leaving.ﾊI'm talking about winning.ﾊAnd we need a fresh start, a new credibility, a president who can bring allies to our side.ﾊ

I also have a plan to win the war on terror, funding homeland security, strengthening our military, cutting our finances, reaching out to the world, again building strong alliances.ﾊ

I believe America's best days are ahead of us because I believe that the future belongs to freedom, not to fear.ﾊ

KERRY:ﾊThat's the country that I'm going to fight for.ﾊAnd I ask you to give me the opportunity to make you proud.ﾊI ask you to give me the opportunity to lead this great nation, so that we can be stronger here at home, respected again in the world, and have responsible leadership that we deserve.

Thank you.ﾊAnd God bless America.

LEHRER:ﾊMr. President, two minutes.

BUSH:ﾊThank you very much tonight, Jim.ﾊSenator.

If America shows uncertainty or weakness in this decade, the world will drift toward tragedy.ﾊThat's not going to happen, so long as I'm your president.ﾊ

The next four years we will continue to strengthen our homeland defenses.ﾊWe will strengthen our intelligence-gathering services.ﾊWe will reform our military.ﾊThe military will be an all-volunteer army.ﾊ

We will continue to stay on the offense.ﾊWe will fight the terrorists around the world so we do not have to face them here at home.

BUSH:ﾊWe'll continue to build our alliances.ﾊI'll never turn over America's national security needs to leaders of other countries, as we continue to build those alliances.

And we'll continue to spread freedom.ﾊI believe in the transformational power of liberty.ﾊI believe that the free Iraq is in this nation's interests.ﾊI believe a free Afghanistan is in this nation's interest.ﾊ

And I believe both a free Afghanistan and a free Iraq will serve as a powerful example for millions who plead in silence for liberty in the broader Middle East.

We've done a lot of hard work together over the last three and a half years.ﾊWe've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges.ﾊWe've climbed the mighty mountain.ﾊI see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace.

By being steadfast and resolute and strong, by keeping our word, by supporting our troops, we can achieve the peace we all want.ﾊ

I appreciate your listening tonight.ﾊI ask for your vote.ﾊAnd may God continue to bless our great land.

LEHRER:ﾊAnd that ends tonight's debate.ﾊA reminder, the second presidential debate will be a week from tomorrow, October 8th, from Washington University in St. Louis.ﾊCharles Gibson of ABC News will moderate a town hall-type event.ﾊThen, on October 13th, from Arizona State University in Tempe, Bob Schieffer of CBS News will moderate an exchange on domestic policy that will be similar in format to tonight's.

Also, this coming Tuesday, at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, the vice presidential candidates, Vice President Cheney and Senator Edwards, will debate with my PBS colleague, Gwen Ifill, moderating.

For now, thank you, Senator Kerry, President Bush.ﾊ

From Coral Gables, Florida, I'm Jim Lehrer.ﾊThank you and good night.

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